Lotus Notes and Taligent Shenanigans Log

This is a log of a conversation that happened on DisNCord on January 1st, 2023 related to a user's experimentation with some old IBM software.

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

What are you wanting to do with Lotus Notes @vmlemon?
I have Notes 5.x and 9.x on systems.
I can test something for you.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Was wanting to test a plug-in, for Windows, that I found, earlier on

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

The PlacesGA thing?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Yeah, it's supposed to be for Notes 4, so I don't know if it will work, with a newer version

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I think I have Notes 4.x media.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I'd try it, but I need to spin up a Windows instance, and find a copy of Notes 4

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I can help with the find a copy of Notes 4.x part. 😈
DM me if you want me to upload images somewhere.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Thanks

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

You're welcome.

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

@vmlemon I just check the URLs on TIA for Taligent and I'm not finding any nsf / nsd files directly.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Maybe Places generates them, or ships with them?

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I did find a single exe file, Places10.exe.
Maybe it self extracts.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Yeah, it's an InstallShield thing, IIRC

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

rolls his eyes

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I don't think they shipped bare/loose NSFs/NSDs, on their Website, since the big attraction is that they made a fancy, new thing, with their proprietary libraries
Probably too new, for this kind of stuff, but going to install Windows Server 2003, again, since I managed to free up enough space

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Are you targeting running Domino and / or Notes?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Probably see what happens, if I run the Places installer, as-is, and then, see if I can install Notes, if it cries about it being missing
I'm tempted to also try it, on x86-64 Linux, and WINE, but I suspect that won't work
Only got about 70GB free, on my root partition, so it's tricky, to keep a lot of stuff hanging around, for too long 😦

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Taligent Places installer cries about Notes being missing.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I want to try that Windows port of OpenDoc, if I can, too

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I'm standing up an NT 4.0 Workstation to install Notes and Places now.
I think this will be one of the first times that I'm actually using my custom NT 4.0 install CD as the foundation of a test.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Ooh

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Once it's done I'll have NT 4.0 Workstation installed with SP6a and VMware tools.
Minimal interaction too.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Nice

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

😁
It should take 3~8 minutes for NT to install.
N.B. fresh install, not an image.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I really want to have NetWare running, again, too - but, all of the options suck, for networking, in QEMU

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Especially on a MacOS host

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I've had NetWare 4.x and 5.× running in multiple hypervisors without any problem.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Yeah, the OS itself works fine, but actually interfacing it to the outside world, or other VMs, is an exercise in frustration, unless you're running it in VirtualBox, or a VMware product
On an x86 host

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I'd swear that I've tried KVM+QEMU before.
But it's been a long time.
I've sort of reluctantly come to the conclusion ~> resigned myself to the fact that I'm going to run VMware.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

QEMU only does unidirectional, NAT'd IPv4, with a bunch of quirks, by default, unless you can set up TUN/TAP

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Mostly for superior access to guest consoles.
I question the veracity of that.
I'm quite certain that I've done standard L2 bridging with QEMU.
The default is to use NAT.
But there are options.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

("Unidirectional" as in, you can access host resources, but you can't do anything with raw sockets, or running servers, on the guest, and accessing them, from outside)

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I understand what you're saying.
I just disagree with it.
There is a possibility that I'm conflating things, but I really do believe that it's possible to have more than NATed access from within a QEMU vm.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I probably had it working, once, on a Linux host, but it took a very long time, and a load of buggy scripts, to configure the TUN/TAP stuff, IIRC
And, that was a few years ago
MacOS doesn't even support TUN/TAP, out of the box

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Ya, lots of documentation out there is a PITA and / or (way) outdated.
I suspect that macOS is the source of some of your limitations.
I did all of my QEMU work on Linux.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Yeah, I'm on ARM, too
So, if I want to run x86 stuff, I pretty much have to use qemu-system-x86_64

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

One more reboot and I'll be up at an NT 4 Workstation desktop with SP6a and VMware tools installed.
I partitioned and formatted FAT-16 from MS-DOS 6.22 (on the boot CD), used a batch file to start the setup, entered a host name and hit enter twice, then started a login for a RunOnce to install VMware tools, poked three buttons and It's now ready for me.

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I forgot about that "but are you sure" screen.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I like how most of the copies of Notes are either 3.x, 5.x, for OS/2, or in Spanish, that I can find

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

What are you looking for?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Just Notes 4.0, for Windows

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I don't have Notes 4.0 for Windows.
But I do have Notes 4.1.5 for Windows.
…and many other platforms.
Do you want me to send you a copy of it?
Or put it somewhere you can pull it?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Could always dump it on IA, since they don't have 4.x, other than the Spanish version
Did find https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334201770690, which is pretty cheap, so I'm tempted to order it

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

#[user@host:/addonics/…/Lotus Notes/Lotus Notes 4.6]% ls -1
'Lotus Domino Chat 4.61.iso'
'Lotus Notes 4.61 AIX Solaris.iso'
'Lotus Notes 4.61 OS2 4.0 NetWare 4.1 Windows NT 4.0.iso'
'Lotus Notes 4.6a AIX Solaris.iso'
'Lotus Notes 4.6a OS2 4.0 NetWare 4.1 Windows NT 4.0.iso'
Well, Taligent's Places for Project Teams (1.0) installed without a problem in NT 4.0 w/ Notes 4.61 installed.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

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Hah, and I broke the screen capture tool, so now I have a bright square, and the rest of my screen is dimmed
No idea how
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

faceplams
Oh … Places for Project Teams (P4PT) is it's own critter.
As in stand alone program.
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vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Nice

robobox (2023-01-01)

wait taligent actually released something?

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

It seems so.
But it has … issues.
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vmlemon (2023-01-01)

The future, that never was
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I wonder what about P4PT used notes?
I do see .nsf files in the Talegent folder.
But Nothing visible in Notes yet.
I also got an error about no server connection.
I wonder if P4PT is really an application that rides on the Notes+Domino framework and uses Domino as a central server for P4PT.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

"Lotus Notes:
A Lotus Notes Account with Lotus Notes client software installed on your computer is necessary in order to utilize Places for Project Teams. This application uses Notes version 4.0 or higher, including Domino. (A Notes server is not strictly required to run Places for Project Teams if you do not intend to share a Place with any other person)"
Sounds like it's the sharing/collaboration bits, that need the Domino connection

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Mmm, Christmas 2096
They were definitely optimistic about the longevity of the product, and the company

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I suspect that's a Y2k bug. 🪳

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Mmm, NetWare version. Definitely thinking of buying it, for that, alone
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Didn't know that Domino, for NetWare was a thing
Ordered it, since a friend just spontaneously sent me some money, for New Year's

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Ya, my disks have NetWare versions of Domino too.
I found it to be … unstable.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Ouch

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Quite likely operator error.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Fancy installer splash, though
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Yep

Sparkly (2023-01-01)

Very 90s

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Hmm, looks like VetusWare has a copy of Domino/Notes 4.52
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Time to experience, why everyone lo(ath/v)es DomiNotes, I guess
Looks like it detected my Notes installation
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Reboot time
Hmm, so Places(TM) are seemingly NSF files, with some extra bits, and PDS files, and they seem to be using ActiveX controls, to implement some of the Notes integration features
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Might pull a copy of the installed files, and then, have a look at creating some Places, with the PlaceMaker thingy

seabassapologist [at least a C++] (2023-01-01)

No wonder IBM bought Lotus. That's very much an IBM error

Sparkly (2023-01-01)

is this on XP or NT 4.0?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I'm using Server 2003

Sparkly (2023-01-01)

I just noticed the recycle bin

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I see the same, trying to use the PlaceMaker
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I guess that Notes has to be running, but nothing else?
Mmm, fake paper
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I took that error to be related to lack of Domino connection.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Ooh, Notes has VINES support
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Yep.
Notes client and server* was a very nice and capable product in my opinion.
*Remember, Notes was the name of both the client and server in early versions. Much like Exchange was also both the client and server in early versions.
Notes server was renamed Domino.
Exchange client was renamed Outlook.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Yeah, I was wondering, if "Domino" also included Notes, or if it was a separate product, so I was surprised, when I wasn't sent on a wild goose chase

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Re-run your installer.
I think there's a "server" component that you can install.
I think the Notes (server) rename to Domino happened at either 4.6 or 5.0.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

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Yeah, looks like I installed the Server, too
But, not the Advanced Partitioning stuff, that wanted an extra licence

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Did you configure Notes (client) to connect to the (Domino) server?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I'm still setting up the client
I like how the password echoes, in plain text, too
Very Secure(TM)

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

As far as I understand it, I think that the "Advanced Partitioning" stuff is akin to name based virtual hosting in Apache HTTPD.
Remember the time that this is from.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Curious timezones
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CursedCo now has the latest innovations, in communications technology
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Meh, but the PlaceMaker still doesn't work
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Should totally try to "extend" the trial

FreeFull (2023-01-01)

I'm trying the lg3d live cd in qemu, but there is no way to get 3d acceleration or to change the default resolution without crashing
The kernel driver seems to give unaccelerated VESA/fbdev, and obviously qemu doesn't emulate anything compatible with fglrx or nvidia drivers
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

/me stomps his foot and says "But I don't wanna set up Domino and multiple Notes clients today!" in @vmlemon general direction.

FreeFull (2023-01-01)

Omg, the only editor on this live cd is ed

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Uploaded that version of Notes, and the Places dingus, wrapped into an ISO, to IA, just now 😉
No-one ever wants to install a printer
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

LOL

FreeFull (2023-01-01)

They could have at least included vi

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I ran into that too.
Generic Text Only for the win.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

To The Cloud!
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

But ed(1) is the standard editor.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

That's cute
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FreeFull (2023-01-01)

It does have Firefox 1.5
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( That's xfce )

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Quite a few features, it seems
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Business Cards(TM)
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Finally, a Thing(TM), that I can put my Name(TM), and Telephone(R) Number(TM) on
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FreeFull (2023-01-01)

The actual distro they used is Slax

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Rekt
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Kinda reminds me of MS Project
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People(TM) View(TM) is Interesting(TM)
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Not sure what it's supposed to do
Oh, you can hover over the initials, to see the full name, in blue
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Feels very '90s

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Weird, so they're using Delphi, and ActiveX, to implement parts of Places - I wasn't expecting that
Some stuff is in C++, though
I expected them to use their vaunted, super-amazing proprietary frameworks, for it all

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Oof, that looks broken
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Looks like you get source code, though
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That's very un-IBM

pJowok (2023-01-01)

part of the IBM family?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Apparently so
Or, some of the Apple folks, who also worked on it?

pJowok (2023-01-01)

I like that IBM for a long time didn't even dogfood their own products
that's when you know it's quality software, when not even your own engineers use it

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Heh, it's animated, too
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Cute
(The "objects" slides in)

pJowok (2023-01-01)

what is this? powerpoint?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

It's an additional enabling component, for OpenDoc

pJowok (2023-01-01)

does it 'wush' as well? 😄

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

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NetWare support, oh my
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pJowok (2023-01-01)

you can't have objects slide in without a wush
it's powerpoint 101

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

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That's how you know it's crusty

pJowok (2023-01-01)

mmmh, a fine selection of hand picked artisanal TCP/IP stacks

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

"This TCP/IP stack is scratched, I will not buy it"

pJowok (2023-01-01)

carefully crafted for you, each packet is signature hand crafted
most overused word about products in the world: signature
because it highlights that all their other products are of course utter garbage, only signature products are the finest of the finest...

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

The new Chicken Scratch range of fine foods

pJowok (2023-01-01)

"Good Enough ™️"

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

X, because we can't be bothered to put our name to it(TM)

pJowok (2023-01-01)

like, I would love that a supermarket would do a private label brand called GoodEnough

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Sauce Included
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

Oh wow!
You're dealing with things old enough that the TCP/IP stack wasn't built in / was an optional component. So you needed to specify which of the supported optional components you were using.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

"You Probably Won't Die Eating This"
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'Wow! This Tastes Like Shit(R)"
"I Can't Believe They're Actually Selling This!"
Slowly building a shrine, to dead '90s tech, and vapourware
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Only needs the OpenStep stuff, probably
And, VisualAge, for C++
The bizarro, alternative universe, where Apple were going to licence Windows NT
Pain
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Hope I haven't broken it
Wow, that's a bloated copyright header
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Looks like some stuff from Novell is in this version

seabassapologist [at least a C++] (2023-01-01)

That code is 4 months older than I am 😂

Nix (ae/aem/aer/aeself) | /*volatile*/ (2023-01-01)

Biggus Copyrightus?
Wow, the left hand actually knew what the right hand was doing, when they made this
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DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

@vmlemon I did do an install of Domino and the create a new TP4PT place.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Nice
Just hope the other SOM stuff hasn't broken OpenDoc, since nothing launches
Looks like I can theoretically embed OpenDoc parts, as OLE objects, in WordPad, though
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Hah, and WordPad crashes, if I try that
I love how Googling for those error codes is totally useless, since it's mostly all forum posts, and "Something broken, but we don't actually know what, which means that your PC is broken, and you need to reinstall Windows, or buy a new one" shit
Mmm, fun
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Wouldn't be surprised, if I'm not missing some old MSVCRT crap, or something, that doesn't ship with WinServer2003, out of the box

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Ended up uploading the Places PDF manual, too (https://ia804700.us.archive.org/0/items/tal-places/UserGuide.pdf)

Piusbird (2023-01-01)

Here's a cursed idea let's use Makefiles instead of docker-compose

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

I'm a fan of make.

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

make it-so

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

target not found

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Wow, it actually installs, on this version of Windows
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Will be surprised, if this actually works properly
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Includes source, too
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That's fucked
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vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Hmm, and some guide suggests disabling DEP
(http://rdpsupport.resortdata.com/Customers/Knowledge/KB-RDPWin/KWin0184.htm)
Turn off Data Execution Protection (DEP) on Windows 2003 Server
Turn off Data Execution Protection (DEP) on Windows 2003 Server

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

And, the "LoadAppInit_DLLs" workaround doesn't seem to make a difference, either
Might have to try this stuff, on Win2000, instead

Piusbird (2023-01-01)

I'd recomend that for something of this vintage
also i did it https://git.piusbird.space/dockerfiles.git/tree/Makefile

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Nice

Piusbird (2023-01-01)

not as cursed as i thought it was going to be

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I don't really want to have to go all the way back to NT4, if I can help it, given the shitshow, with video drivers, and volume size limits

Piusbird (2023-01-01)

dad only got rid of his last active NT4 deployment in 2019

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Fun

Piusbird (2023-01-01)

factory floor machine that did something vital

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

I hate how Windows is so opaque, and difficult to get useful diagnostic info from, when it comes to this kind of shit
Even Event Viewer is useless, for this kind of thing

top text (2023-01-01)

…somehow I forgot you were in here 😅 but also yeah it be like that sometimes

Piusbird (2023-01-01)

oh he new it was there
he just couldn't do anything about it

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Heh, so OLE isn't totally broken, but something definitely is fucked-up, with DLLs
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NCommander (2023-01-01)

This is just exploring visualage c++/

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Yeah, on a totally-broken version of Windows, by the looks of things, too
Wanted to look at the OpenDoc, for Windows stuff, and that's also blocked, on the same issue
Either some libraries are missing, or something corrupted
But, we found a Taligent product, and got it to work, so it's all fun
It wouldn't be Windows, if something wasn't totally broken
Oof, and it can't load the icons, in this ancient version of Acrobat Reader
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Something is definitely screwed up, with DLLs
Going to install OpenStep Enterprise on it
Not expecting it to work, but hey-ho

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

And, the NeXT stuff doesn't run properly, either

DrScriptt (2023-01-01)

@vmlemon are you on too new a version of Windows for those things to work?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Unsure, but to be fair, I couldn't get the NeXT things working on NT4, despite it claiming to be supported
Server 2003 was always "fun", when it comes to compatibility, compared to its XP siblings, though
Heh
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RIP

NCommander (2023-01-01)

This feels like it all needs to be wikied

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Found a copy of "ParcPlace DigiTalk VisualWave Server", just now, too
Some HP-adjacent, SmallTalk-based application development thing

top text (2023-01-01)

okay where from?

vmlemon (2023-01-01)

Includes source, fun
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https://techmonitor.ai/technology/parcplace_ready_with_version_of_its_visualwave_object_environment_configured_for_creating_world_wide_web_pages, and http://www.edm2.com/index.php/VisualWorks has info, on that, and IA has a copy of the software
Tech Monitor
CBR Staff Writer
PARCPLACE READY WITH VERSION OF ITS VISUALWAVE OBJECT ENVIRONMENT C...
As expected, the newly-created ParcPlace-Digitalk Inc, based in Sunnyvale, California, has created a VisualWave object-oriented development system for
VisualWorks
I believe it was supposed to have been integrated/merged with HP Distributed SmallTalk, or SoftBench, at one point
Surprised by how many of these things existed, back in the '90s
Seemed that everyone wanted to be the next NeXT