View source for Suzuran's PDP-10 Log

[[Category:History]]
[[Category:Discussion Logs]]
[[Category:Preservation and Documentation]]
This is a log of a thread on DisNCord in November 2022 related to one user's [[Slow Computing Speedruning]] entry. It quickly became apparent that this machine came with some interesting history. 

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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Name of the project: Running ITS on a PDP-10.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Hardware/Operating System: MIT Incompatible Timesharing System/DEC PDP-10
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Summary: That's about all there is to it.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Type: Passive/Active
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Account Streaming: Suzuran
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It's an actual physical hardware PDP-10, not an emulator.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>See https://<redacted>/se.html for instructions and information about connecting to the machine and doing things with it.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>This machine is on my home IP, so please don't give its addresses out anywhere else without asking me first. 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Image
</nowiki><br>
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'''NCommander''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>I love this, I love every bit of this.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I might actually see about getting on chaosnet to just tickle it
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>i can't connect myself
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>oh telnet works
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>hitting control Z seems to do nothing, might be my term emu
</nowiki><br>
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'''prot''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Oh wow, this is awesome
</nowiki><br>
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'''Larry Hellison''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Being Meguca is suffering
</nowiki><br>
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'''prot''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>I def need to look at this in more detail when I get a chance
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Meguca is the Linux host that serves as the serial-to-everything-else converter on the workbench. It's an old P4 Thinkcentre. In this case, it runs kermit, and kermit was used to upload microcode and diagnostic programs to the PDP-10 when I was working on getting working storage for it. 
</nowiki><br>
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'''prot''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>ooo, oki :o
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I was primarily referencing the meme xD
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>I was too; The hostname is because it primarily serves as a data mule. It also has an old Adaptec SCSI card and is used to image and reimage SCSI devices. "Being meguca is suffering".
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>At least the storm has passed so there should be (ideally) no more power interruptions
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>i gotta figure out how ITS works
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>in the UNIX HATERS HANDBOOK they say ITS is more user friendly than UNIX
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>now I can't say this is fair since I've been a certified Unix weenie for 10+ years
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>It is; It's just picky about who its friends are.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>but
</nowiki><br>
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'''prot''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>xD
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>https://raw.githubusercontent.com/PDP-10/its/master/doc/_info_/its.primer was meant to get math dorks onto ITS so that may be a good start
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>oh yeah, is MACSYMA installed?
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Yes
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>RAD
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>I have Zork too.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>also rad
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>but i care about guiding ballistic miss- i mean uh
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>factoring polynomials yeah
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>:^)
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Oh, if missiles are your thing, someone else on another server does real-time Apollo flights...
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>ok that was a joke but that sounds rad as hell actually
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>now the real question is, can i access this system over dialup 
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>No, but that is actively being worked on!
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>oh, i was kidding but that's even more rad
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>I have a bunch of VOIP shit and since fax is 14.4K and works marginally well over voip, 9600 should be "Safe".
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>need 300 baud for the authentic ITS experience 
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>I have some system hacking to do so ITS can recognize the carrier detect line, then I get to make 10 serial cables.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>300 actually doesn't work over VOIP, and 1200 has issues.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(The delay compensator destroys 300)
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>The only things I got to work reliably were 2400 and 9600.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>and 9600 is more in line with the dialups that were actually available when AI had directly attached modems.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>sad, i wanted it to suck
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>:^)
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Oh it still sucks.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>You can use the telnet access method and that gets you on a DZ11 port same as a modem would
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>As soon as you have to wait for a screen redraw 1200 starts getting painful
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I was using peek's redraw time as my yardstick when setting up.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Anyway, I'll probably wind up running 2400 at first to see how the interrupt rate looks and if it interacts badly with chaosnet, and go to 9600 only if there's issues.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Ability to survive VOIP is more important here.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It doesn't matter if you can't connect reliably.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>i ran a command in macsyma and i can't tell if its calculating or i put in an invalid input 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>:p
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>ok i think this is a bad input because there's no way the PDP is this slow
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(C1) factor(x^2+5*x+6)
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>I actually haven't messed with macsyma much, I'd expect it to complain if you gave it something bad.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>it says nothing
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>No result may just mean it did what you asked and expects more input
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>not returning a prompt either tho
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Some ITS programs signal completion simply by typing a linefeed (for example, the bootstrap)
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>They'll type a CR when you push enter, then type the LF when the thing is done.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>On a printing terminal, this would move the paper.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>well idk how to get muh result
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>It's not wedged...
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Assuming you are TZIPI, I see your job as waiting for terminal input.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>waiting for input?
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>huh
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Type a ;
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>ok now it's saying ?U?
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Program's alive then
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>how do i kill MACSYMA
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>OH WAIT
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>i think i see the problem
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>i'm an idiot
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>You can kill anything by typing ^Z and then :KILL
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>lol
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>^Z returns to HACTRN.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>i forgot macsyma requires colons after every statement
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Ah
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>https://raw.githubusercontent.com/PDP-10/its/master/doc/manual/macsma.doc appears to be (a) manual for it, not sure if the version matches.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>now it works
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>man this is cool, even if my UNIX weenie brain can barely understand what the hell is going on
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>The more you use it, the more you get used to it.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>yeah, but it still feels like i'm a caveman gawking at fire :p
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Well of course, this is something entirely alien to you.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>For me it's the result of a couple decades of restoration work.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Sounds like a fun story
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Not really. It's me making a 6 month restoration take way too long by being stupid and incompetent.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>And losing important parts of the machine by being even more stupid and incompetent.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>what's the backspace character? ITS doesn't seem to like the one I'm using
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>There's a very strong case for the argument that I never should have been allowed to take this machine.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It wants the ASCII backspace character; Your terminal emulator is probably sending delete.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>If you see ^? that's what's going on.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Oh, if you're connected over telnet and haven't used :stty to change the terminal type, backspace tries to move the print head of a printing terminal.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>it is not and i'm connected over ssh
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>so i'm probably just misunderstanding what's going on
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Odd, ssh should Just Work™️ because that's supdup
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>What's it doing?
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(If it's just doing nothing, it may be that the program in question just doesn't support backspace)
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>FACTOR ( X ^ 2 - 4 X **$** + 7 )   
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>$ is a backspace
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>$ is normally typed if you push the escape/altmode key
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>huh
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Does it think you pressed left arrow or something? Weird.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>What ssh client?
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It may also be that macsyma just uses backspace in an unexpected way.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>OpenSSH 9.1
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Does backspace work at ddt?
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>on macOS terminal
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>backspace works at ddt
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>It's macsyma being weird then.
</nowiki><br>
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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>oh wait it says x is not an infix operator
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>iTerm2 > Terminal.app BTW
</nowiki><br>
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<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>maybe it expects more verbose input
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>oh it does
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>oh that's cool macsyma uses text mode to make it look like a more sane interpretation
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Image
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Funny that this is still being sold as a commercial product today...
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>oh yeah
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>ok well it doesn't seem to be actually factoring things unless it only works with real outputs, which would be a rather stark limitation for a CAS
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>so i think there's something more going on here
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>I'd also like to point out that the PDP-10 is not being particularly effective as a space heater. It's in the mid-40s outside, and the temperature hasn't reached the AC setpoint of 75 yet.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>And the machine's been on for ~10 hours now.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>well made machine or lack of CPU abuse?
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>More the former than the latter. For the KS, the power supply was made by LH Research, and they are very good at what they do. (They still exist today, but as a subsidiary)
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>They also made the power supply for the CADR (Lisp Machine)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>i wonder if any version of MACSYMA for Berkeley Unix survived
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>If you could find someone at MIT who worked on it, they could ask the MIT archivist.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>That's where the ITS version came from, as it had been purged from AI and MC prior to Doomsday.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I corrected the time, so ignore the "revived!" message.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(It was off by an hour because of a DST compensation error when it started up)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>@suzuran oh yeah, how did you get ssh to run a command immediately on connect? just set the shell?
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>It was a pain in the ass.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>oh lordy
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Setting the shell fails, I had to use ForceCommand in the sshd config file, and the supdup client lives in a chroot
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>That way if someone somehow leaves the supdup client they don't have a shell on my host.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>was the chroot hard to set up
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Not in and of itself, but since the linux implementation of chaosnet in use requires IPC shared memory, getting that consistent on both sides of the chroot required abuse of mount --bind and that was a chore.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>oh
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>does sound like a pain in the ass
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Especially since nobody wants to help people do things like this, I was just told "that's a security compromise, you should not do it, just give up, what you want cannot be done"
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>and "running an obsolete system is a security issue even if it's on an isolated network, you should stop"
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>yeah, sure
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Everyone had all kinds of reasons why I should stop or give up or why I was being stupid/incompetent/immoral/etc. but nobody had anything constructive.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>people are gonna find a massive exploit to jump from CHAOSNET into your LAN
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>and format your hard drives
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I'd say this about like, any form of UNIX
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>I keep forgetting that shitting on people and gatekeeping are "contributions" now.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>But hey, at least it's not LKML.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>but ITS is so old and detached from the entire rest of computing I think its fine lol
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>@Acher I didn't have the heart to tell them that I had an emulated ITS instance directly on the unfirewalled internet until ~2018, when cisco bot scanning got so prevalent I had to give up because the botnets would just ddos it by assuming anything with a telnet port was a cisco router.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>i did the same with 2.11BSD a few weeks ago
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>completely clear
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>I was doing this on my employer's extremely legacy IPv4 allocation; Scan activity is extremely common.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I can literally pick any given unannounced and unreferenced IP address, some which have never been used or referenced in DNS in the past 25 years, put tcpdump there, and reliably detect scan activity within a minute.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>yep
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Gonna be honest tho, I really don't see how your PDP-10 is a security risk
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>it barely speaks ARPA, what are you gonna do
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>implement fucking SSH on an OS from the 1960s to hack one computer? 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>there's a point where the security risk kinda becomes negligible
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Oh, it has an IP stack, I just don't have a physical IMP interface, or enough memory space left on a Unibone to emulate one.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It expects to communicate via a Chaosnet-to-IP bridge but I have to write the (server-side) software for that.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>yeah, i highly doubt someone's gonna own you from your ITS system lmao
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Same. People just see security concerns as the new Internet "I Win" Button
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>actually let's consider the idea for a second
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>I just realized I never actually set up user directories, so I did that; People who log in now will be run through inquir and given a place for their files.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>someone would need to  learn enough ITS to write the software required to jump out of ITS 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>nobody is doing that for one zombie
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>lol
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>There's nowhere to jump out of in this case, since it's a physical machine.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>If IP worked, they could in theory telnet to things behind my firewall
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>If email were routable to internet, they could spam.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>They can certainly use chaosnet to mess up other peoples' machines on the chaosnet (this machine is on the Global Chaosnet)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>by jump out, i mean to jump out of your machine to another
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Oh, I thought you meant an emulation escape
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>and even then, you could solve this with some routering skills
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Someone actually did PoC an escape from 2.11BSD under simh to attack the host running simh
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>The exploit was in simh's telnet-to-serial layer though
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>The PDP-11 OS wasn't important.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>They just needed the ability to control echo
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>if i disable DZ is that possible? 
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>No, but that kinda defeats the purpose of running a multi-user OS.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>The bug was fixed a long time ago anyway. 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It was something involving telnet options negotiation
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>some telnet options are allowed always, some only on initial connection, and simh didn't make that distinction
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Well, 2.11BSD can be run on the actual internet
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>yes
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>so you wouldn't need DZ emu
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>The scenario was that DZ was in use to avoid issues in the 2.11 IP stack, which was presumed insecure (because it's old) 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>The message was supposed to be "even isolating the guest from the network won't save you" 
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>uh, how lol 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>listen im kinda paranoid but if it's isolated from my network by a firewall
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>how is it a security risk lmao
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>It's some "if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around do hear it, does it make a sound?" shit.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>"Your unpowered and buried computer is still insecure because someone could dig it up, turn it on, and hack it"
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>"Therefore you are bad and you should feel bad; I win"
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>dumb dumb dumb dumb
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>@suzuran how do i change my info? rerun INQUIR
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Yes
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It should bring up an interface that lets you change things
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I don't remember if the database entry has to have been approved first.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It may also give you a chance to change things at the end of initial submission; It's been awhile since I ran through it.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>it did but i killed it because i typed my name wrong :p
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Ah
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>@suzuran actually i wonder if VAXSYMA is on AFS
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>there's a lot of old shit on MIT'S AFS
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Oh, I haven't had AFS access in a donkey's age
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Yeah
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>i found like, X10
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Can't hurt to check (if you still have access) 
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''Acher''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>I mean, part of AFS is public but I am NOT an MITer
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I went to my local state IT before dropping out :p
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Oh, I thought you meant you had non-public access. Even the public area of MIT's AFS had a lot of ancient goodies.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Assuming I can't be connected to two different voice servers at once, there's going to be a short stream interruption. The machine will stay up, only the console stream will be interrupted.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Apparently I can be connected to two different voice servers at once. Nice!
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>I just realized I have no idea how ITS is going to handle the DST change
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Or if it even tries.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''prot''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Time to find out :D
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Oh shoot
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>How will m Ultra react xD
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Actually, it should have already happened in the eastern timezone, right?
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''prot''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Not quite yet I don't think
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>In about half an hour?
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''volatilefluid''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Is ITS even remotely capable of loading timezone data off the Tz database?
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Tz parser on a PDP-10 is already a cursed notion, not gonna lie
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>ITS doesn't even know what timezones are, it's hardcoded for eastern timezone.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It wasn't ever intended to run outside of MIT.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''volatilefluid''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>Evil.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

<div style="line-height: calc(100% * 0.75);">
'''suzuran OP''' (''05/11/2022'')
<div style="margin-left: 2em; line-height: calc(100% * 1.25);">
<nowiki>You have to remember, when ITS was written, the number of computers in the world that could run it was four...
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>The AI PDP-6 had serial number 2.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>It was the first one DEC shipped. (They kept serial number 1)
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(The PDP-10 is an upgraded PDP-6)
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(with some assembly language changes)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''06/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>OK, ITS apparently does not support daylight savings time then
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I manually subtracted one hour
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''06/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Stream failed while I was asleep because the cat pulled out the power cord trying to climb on top of the desk.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>:aeris:
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>The Mac that does the streaming is my old MBP, whose battery is no longer functional. The -10 was not interrupted and now has more than 24 hours of uptime.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''thenico2 (next-hop ::1)''' (''06/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>impressive
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''06/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>I updated the OP with clearer instructions about how to tell ITS what username you want.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>my computer teacher was a system v engineer at at&t 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>he had flashbacks when he saw the pdp10 lmfao
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Really? Weird, I'd have expected him to remember TOPS-10 or Twenex, not ITS.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>Did he by any chance attend MIT?
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>yes, he did
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>i let him poke around a little bit but diddent give him the address
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>dont want to go against your wishes
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>If he's ex-MIT and had an account on AI or MC, I may have his home directory. If he remembers his UNAME, I can check.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>wait how would you have his home dir
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>In any event, ex-MIT people are almost certainly kosher
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>cool
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>its kind of cool i know people like that XD
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>wait
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>you can connect to MIT still?
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>It's complicated; When the last two MIT ITS machines were turned off, a set of final backups was made. Since they contained sensitive personal info mixed in with the software, a handful of copies were given to trustworthy people so ITS could be resurrected later. I am one of those people.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>THATS COOL
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>what was the purpose of ITS?
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>To allow more than one person at a time to use the PDP-6.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>ohhh
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Multi-user systems were theoretical then.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>how big are the backups?
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>just curiosity XD 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>thats fascinating though
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>About 12" x 4"
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>wait you have the physical disks?
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>thats cool as hell holy shit
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>9-track tapes
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>why would you need to resurrect ITS 
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>arent the installer tapes like
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>publicly available
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>They weren't when I started.
</nowiki><br>
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</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>damn
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>your kind of insane honestly
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>in a cool way
</nowiki><br>
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</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>There wasn't even a publicly-available emulator when I started.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(KLH10 existed, but its existence was a secret)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>why would it be a secret though
</nowiki><br>
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</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>(It wasn't able to run a real operating system at the time anyway)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Because PDP-10s were still in active use then, and the author felt he might get sued.
</nowiki><br>
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</div>

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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>oh
</nowiki><br>
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</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>The restoration of this machine has been a two-decade project.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(Although a lot of that was spent making stupid mistakes and chasing dead ends)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>this is insanity
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>props to you
</nowiki><br>
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</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Oh this is one of the more sane things I've done.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>There's a lot worse.
</nowiki><br>
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'''ppc mac girl 2 electric boogaloo''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>its bonkers how many high profile people ive spoken too in the computer world im just a dumbass 16 year old girl
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>and microsoft for some reason is already offering me internships
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''07/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Oh I'm far from high-profile. I have talked to some people who are, though.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>I edited the OP again: There's now a page at https://<redacted>/se.html explaining how to get connected to the machine and suggesting things one can do with it once logged in.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Apparently if you leave extra junk on your ssh command line when connecting, supdup will complain about termcap being invalid and disconnect you.
</nowiki><br>
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</div>

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'''scam.net''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>so you went to MIT?
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>or worked there?
</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>

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'''suzuran OP''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>No. I'm too young to have been there during the AI Lab days. Two of the chosen few were non-MIT people as a safeguard against MIT retroactively deciding ITS should go down the memory hole for some odd reason, or something like that.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>MIT was (and has continued to be) very weird about releasing old software.
</nowiki><br>
</div>
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'''scam.net''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>how did you get a hold of the backups then?
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>I mean like why were you in the chain of trust
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(if i can ask, i don't want to dox you)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Because people who were in a position to make that decision decided I was worth the risk. So far, as I have not distributed any of the sensitive bits, I like to think their trust has not been misplaced.
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>(I had a PDP-10, I wanted to make it run ITS, and I guess I had the right mindset to accomplish those things)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
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'''scam.net''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>Ah
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>where did you get the PDP-10 from?
</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>was it one from MIT or not (sorry if i'm asking obvious questions)
</nowiki><br>
</div>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>It came from a private collector. He was holding it for someone who was unlikely to be able to retrieve it. They were asked if I could have it instead, and they agreed. Since I was going to be developing an emulator of the machine, they were more happy with having the resulting emulator than the physical machine.
</nowiki><br>
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'''scam.net''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>ah
</nowiki><br>
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'''suzuran OP''' (''08/11/2022'')
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<nowiki>It was not originally at MIT, it was originally at a different institution.</nowiki><br>
</div>
</div>